communication of a tense sort

who: Caleb and Mathias
where: a very crappy motel
when: Noonish

Caleb had been sort of debating what the hell to say to his brother for the past few days, since he understood that he'd have to explain himself. Or, probably. Maybe. Or maybe he wouldn't, and he was stressing himself out for nothing. That was entirely possible. He didn't figure he'd get shit for it...or he didn't think so. It was also possible that Caleb was feeling the need to justify things to himself, and was just displacing that off on his brother. She hadn't called again yet, and he wondered when she would. He sort of wanted to have an answer for her on the 'when can we meet' question though before he talked to her.

So, when they were still getting ready to take off again, he sort of leaned against the wall in the room Mathias occupied. "So...remember how I mentioned Ohio...?"

Mathias was rooting through his bag, looking for a clean shirt. Thankfully, stopping at the cabin for a few days had let him catch up on his laundry - the reality of his habit of travelling light was that when he was on the run, clean clothes tended to become a luxury. He pulled out a neatly folded t-shirt from the very bottom of the bag and pulled it on, turning to Caleb. "Yeah, the girl in Ohio and you wanted to source a silencer for your friend," Math agreed. "I was going to make some calls about that today, I think I know a guy who could do us a deal on one that's not going to be too much out of our way, so we can pick it up on the way through. Owes me a couple of favours as well, so I should be able to get a good price from him."

Well, that was more than he'd thought about. "Good." he said anyhow. "How much will it set me back? I know she doesn't have any money. But...whatever, I'll pay for it for now. It's probably good for him to have anyhow, considering he's likely to get his ass deported if he's ever caught with that thing." Caleb added. "But...yeah. The girl." he continued. "She wants to meet me and all, and...I figured we'd sort of go through and stop there..."

"Not sure - let me worry about the money and we'll work it out afterwards, okay?" Mathias suggested, unconcerned about the effects of carrying - he assumed that people who wanted illegal shit were willing to take the risks of using it. "And the girl's fine, no problems - I'm confident we're clear now, so we're not going to be bringing shit down on her. And detouring through Ohio's not going to do us any harm - I don't like travelling in straight lines anyhow. So, good plan."

That was easy. "Okay then." Caleb said, then sort of fell silent for a few long moments. "...how is Dor doing, anyways?" he asked. Because he'd bailed on the conversation with their brother, and hadn't really caught up with him since. It wasn't that he wasn't talking to him. That wasn't the case at all. Just not in the 'hey let's sit down and chat' sort of way. He knew Math had talked to him, though.

Well, wasn't that just the question? And Mathias wasn't entirely sure of the answer. Physically, Dorian was fine. But the guy was confused, that much was obvious. Mathias crossed to the dresser to retrieve his cigarettes, lighting up, ignoring the 'No Smoking' sign that sat right next to his lighter. "He's confused - remember that conversation we had about rules? Well, now I've had it with both of you," he told Caleb on the exhale.

Caleb looked over, brow arching and he was clearly thrown by that. "...you had to have the same conversation with Dorian." he repeated. It wasn't a question, more...yep! It was official. Caleb just didn't get some things in this world, and Dorian was apparently one of them. "How the shit does that work?"

"Well, I open my mouth and words come out - it's a skill I learnt at a very young age," Mathias deadpanned, giving Caleb a look.

He rolled his eyes. "Whatever, if you don't want to talk about it? Just say." he said. "I just want to know what the fuck is up with him, considering he's back--or is he? Is he taking off again, or what?"

"I don't know," Mathias admitted, taking a seat on the end of the bed. "I don't think he knows. No, that's wrong, I'm sure he doesn't know. He needs to figure some stuff out about himself and until he gets that..." There was another drag on his cigarette. "He'll be fine - he just needs some time."

Is that time with us, or time away? Is he going to just wander the fuck off, continue killing shit he can't handle, and we're going to have to bail him out again? How on earth did he wind up having to have the same talk with you as I have? Shouldn't he have his shit even slightly more together than mine? I'm a trainwreck for fucks sake. But I'm trying. Went through his head, but in the end Caleb didn't say anything.

"We'll work it out, Caleb," Math promised, finishing off his cigarette and getting up to cross and stub it out in the sink of his tiny little bathroom before reappearing. "So, you hear anything more from your friend about why we had to leave in such a hurry?" he asked.

Caleb still didn't say anything to the first bit, though he felt like he'd gotten the brush off on things. Granted, he could have dug more, but he didn't feel like the information should have needed that. It was their brother. It was also possible he was feeling sullen today. Either way, he was twitching, and tried to answer Math's question. "No. Not really. Just we had to. I don't know if the ghosts that had started to come out of the water were following me farther than up the hill. They might have been. Does it matter?"

"Just interested - it's a useful bolt hole, I'd hate to think I have to strike it off the list," Mathias told him, easily. He would do, though, if it came to it. He had enough other places to go. He'd just always liked the retreat, though obviously he'd never gone walking by the lake. Most of the time, he tried not to get out too much when he was laying low. Just in case. paranoia had kept him alive at times.

"So, when you head back at some point, don't go poking around with the dead people in the water." Caleb said. "We were fine for a few days before that, I would imagine the logic would hold." he said, and his mood was in his tone. That edge of pissy, even if he tried to ease that out. He just wasn't any good at it. He'd always been easy to piss off in general, anger being the only emotion for a long while that really saw the light of day. He'd gotten better, or had been getting better, but that didn't mean he didn't occasionally still have attacks of pissy bitch.

Mathias gave him a look at that, though it was more curious at the tone than pissed in return. "Unless once disturbed they remained active," he pointed out. "Would be grateful if you'd find out what that was about when we get back - I don't want to find myself running there just to end up with a force of pissed off spirits."

"Somehow I really highly doubt that we're the only people that have been around, disturbing them." Caleb said. "So I can't imagine that whole theory would hold. Someone else has had to have poked around before...didn't we get the place in the first place because the area isn't that good anymore? Like, people disappearing and shit? That's probably the cause. Dean said something about how the chick he knew who used to be a ghost could call lightning. When they were talking to me, they just wanted me to go with them. So I'm assuming there's a good lot of people just drowned. Maybe they're just active if you keep provoking them."

"Yeah, might be nothing, but I don't like the uncertainty when I could be half dead when I reach there. Especially since people are disappearing. Sue me - I'm paranoid. It's kept me alive over the years," Math explained, not apologising for himself at all. This was how he lived - he got places off of people for whatever reason. He flitted from place to place. And he kept a mental running list of where he could go, who he could call and the risks he'd face in any destination. if there was a chance that dead people were going to try and kill him, or talk him into walking into a lake - he wanted to know that shit beforehand.

"Whatever, I'll ask. Why don't you ask Dorian, he's the one with all the degrees on this shit, isn't he?" Caleb asked, scowling a little, and he was feeling the need to leave. That little itch in the back of his head that said it was time to bail. Which kind of sucked, because he hadn't had that with Math in a long time. Generally speaking he bailed on Dor, who universally let him do it. He'd stopped trying with Mathias, because the eldest Lockwood didn't generally allow him that. But, if Dorian was even less together than Caleb was, maybe he'd have his hands full. He didn't know, and apparently, he was on a need to know basis, and Math had decided he didn't need to know. Yes, he was still being pissy.

"Thank you," Mathias said. "And I never said that I wasn't going to ask Dorian as well, but you seem to have someone who's their own brand of expert. And Dorian doesn't know everything." Obviously, or he wouldn't have gone and fucked up pissing around with fiends and getting himself into such a fucking load of trouble, Mathias added, though he kept that to himself. He was playing the role of supportive older brother. Though, at times, he felt like he was just playing the role of parent to both of them.

"Clearly." Caleb snapped. He crossed his arms, jaw set as he looked away for a long minute, then looked back at his brother. "Since when the fuck are we not talking about shit?" he asked. "I ask about our brother--who is just as important to me as he is to you--and I get a blow off answer? What the fuck?" he asked. "What, I'm good enough to put myself in the middle of a fucking demon battlefield, take down the fuckers that he was stupid enough to get tangled up with, but I can't what...hear that he's fucked in the head?" he asked. "Explain that shit to me. It makes no fucking sense."

"We're all travelling together - you could have just asked him," Mathias pointed out, calm in the face of Caleb's outburst. "And I know he's important to you too, I just don't have answers for you. We talked, he's having issues about who he is and where his place is, finding a balance between who he is and what he's expected to be. I know you know what that feels like - I didn't really think you needed it spelled out to you."

"Oh fuck off, Math, you didn't say that. You said he was confused, and you had one repeated conversation. That doesn't exactly give me all of that information, now does it." Caleb snapped. "So yes, actually, I would need it 'spelled out for me', way to put in there a way to try and make me feel like an idiot, by the way, spectacularly helpful." he said. "Look, we're not being followed anymore, right? Why don't you and him go off wherever the fuck you want to go, and I'll head home. I can take the fucking bus." And it wouldn't get Dean his silencer, but at this point, he would just apologize on that score and maybe try and scare one up on his own.

"No, we talked - me and Dor. Yesterday. And I told you that we had largely the same conversation that you and I had a while back about rules. Not trying to make you feel like an idiot and stop it with the trying to act like you don't belong shit. We both know that doesn't fly," Mathias told him, trying to keep his cool. He really didn't need this right now - not from both of them. Talking to Dorian yesterday had felt like he was banging his head repeatedly against a brick wall, he really didn't want to have to deal with Caleb deciding that he was unwanted and pointless right now.

"...I know you talked. That's what I was talking about." Caleb said, momentary confusion kicking in, and that actually served to push some of his built up anger aside for the moment. "This has nothing to do with you and I talking. That's...whatever, that happened a while back, that's dealt with." he finished.

"A while..." Mathias realised that he was getting himself all muddled here and just started again. "No, look - I think you're not getting me here. A while back you and I had that conversation about being a halfdemon, what that meant, what it meant for finding our place in the world. About the rules we live by, right? Well, I had a similar conversation with Dorian yesterday. He's confused, he's struggling to deal with a lot of things, I think. He's been - from the sounds of it he's been trying to live his life to some imagined perception of what he thinks everyone else expects him to be like. Societal constraints and all that bullshit. So we talked - don't know how far we got, but we talked."

That was more the answer Caleb was looking for. Something beyond bare bones. So, that placated him a bit. "So what's he been doing for the past few weeks?" he asked. "Besides his artfully put 'I just wanted to kill something'." he added. "He's not--" he started, not sure how to put it. "He got himself in far too deep with pretty nasty demons, he's not just fucking up on purpose, is he?" That was slightly better than asking if Dor was suicidal.

"Honestly? I don't know," Mathias told him, feeling better now that Caleb seemed less likely to storm off any moment. Yeah, occasionally he wondered when he'd become a father. "We didn't talk about that, but I don't think he's fucking up on purpose - I didn't get that vibe from him."

That wasn't the answer Caleb wanted to hear, but he was glad he didn't get a shiny, happy one. Hearing that Dor might have some of the tendencies he himself did, that was a whole lot of not good. And it made him wonder how the fuck it had happened. There was a bitter streak through Caleb's mind that had to ask how exactly Dorian had wound up there. He'd had parents who gave at least some part of a shit. He'd had shit handed to him, he had his degrees, which was what he'd wanted to do, he was seven years older for fucks sake. What exactly did he need provided that wasn't already? Hell, Dorian even possibly trumped both he and Math in the genetic special snowflake lottery. "You going to be keeping an eye on him?" Caleb asked after a long silence of just milling everything over, and shoving a ton of things back. Now that he was having a civil conversation, he didn't want to drop all that out there.

"Course I am." Seems to be my new lot in life, Mathias thought, cynically. "And I'll help him as much as I can - same that I'd do for you. You know that."

That, Caleb did have to nod at, without thinking about it. His brother had proven that bit. "Is there anything I can do?" he asked. He didn't know anything off the top of his head. He really, really didn't, but that didn't mean he didn't want to help. He knew one of the defining issues was he and Dorian didn't communicate very well. There had been a few...bouts of static. So he probably was spectacularly ill equipped to talk to Dorian and shit...but maybe there was something else. "And I know I was pissed when I said it before, but I can go home. Just take a bus, make sure it goes through Ohio, head back to Marquette, and just keep you posted. It's not like I can get into any more trouble there than anywhere else. I suppose I should head back to school." Not that he sounded overwhelmingly excited about that idea.

"Why the hell would I want you to do that?" Mathias asked, looking genuinely confused for once, skipping over the rest to address that point. He didn't understand why Caleb would think asking himself out of the picture would achieve anything at all.

"Dorian and I have never quite communicated well." Caleb said, figuring he was going to have to explain this. "And really if he's even on the same trip I was a few weeks ago...maybe it's not the best combination to have us in the same place at the same time. I'm..." he paused, trying to figure out a way to word things that didn't sound stupid. "I'm not one hundred percent or anything, but I've been doing better. I'm at least in a better place. I've kind of been settling into what I think the score is now, and I'm surprisingly alright with it. I think I'm starting to even out on a lot of mental issues, anyways." Then he paused, and sighed, dragging his fingers through his hair and he walked farther into the room, sitting atop the low dresser. "And honestly he frustrates the shit out of me." he said. "I mean...tip of the iceberg here, but I'm seventeen." he said. "I'm pretty sure even if I wasn't a half demon, I'd be having issues with identity. He's seven years older and half the time to me he just..." he didn't finish the statement, hoping Mathias would pick meaning out of it.

"Dorian's been pretending to be something he's not for years," Mathias told him, not lecturing, but trying to be understanding. "I don't know how he managed it for so long, but - maybe those college years helped. he didn't really have to think about what it meant, could just go with the flow and it was only when he had to stop and grow up, become what he had decided the world wanted him to be, only then did he realise that he couldn't do it. I don't know - I never went through that. I never really stopped to think about whether the world wanted me to be something other than me. My issues... came from a different place," he admitted. His identity issues had stemmed from something internal, a personal journey rather than some kind of drive to fit in with society. No less valid, but it was different.

"He decided to become a subject authority on the supernatural. How the hell is that what 'the world wanted him to be'?" Caleb asked, honestly a bit confused on that score. "It's not like most kids get told to grow up and be a bloody librarian for fucks sake. He decided that, didn't he? How did 'the world' impose that? And who's standards is he trying to live with, anyways? I mean, I get it. I know the difference, I've experienced it far more in the past few months than ever before, but...that's just kind of the way it's going to be. The shit that is important to them isn't going to hold the same weight to people like us. It's just a difference, not..." he trailed off, feeling like he was losing his point, or maybe not quite that, but losing focus on what he was initially talking about. "Anyways." he retracked himself. "...what you said. The different place thing. I don't even know. I just know that if we're even both having some of the same personal crisis issues, or did have them, even if they aren't the same, it still might not mesh well. I don't really want to make anything worse, and Math..." he made a bit of a pained face. "Before you showed, some of the arguments Dorian and I had..." he didn't finish the thought.

Mathias shook his head and went to pull out another cigarette, striking up. "I think that was him trying to balance things - lead a 'normal' life - the bookshop. Come on, what could be more vanilla than owning a fucking bookshop? To someone who's playing at it anyway? And, sure, supernatural bookstore, but - you can't give it up completely, can you? So, there's a connection to what you are. And I didn't say it was what the world wanted him to be - I said it was what Dorian thought the world wanted him to be. There's a big difference there," Math reminded him. "But, bro - even if you're spitting cats at each other, unless you hoenstly can't stand to be in the same room together, I'm not going say either of you should go. Once we get back to Marquette we'll... figure something out." He took a pull on his cigarette and slowly exhaled. "How bad were the arguments?" he asked.

"I know that's what you meant, I'm still questioning it because I think it's fucking stupid." Caleb said with a shrug. "I still don't see it. But then again, it's kind of rhetorical too. It's him, unless he explained it all to you..." he shook his head, kind of dropping that. "And here's the thing. It wasn't how bad the arguments got." he said, hoping he'd be able to explain this with some sense involved. "It was the fact that...when I get arguing with him, half the time...do you know that I really feel like I won most of those?" he said. "Like we'd get bitching at one another, and he'd just like...back down and get all hurt and shit. Or what seemed like whiney to me. And trust me, I know for a fact I was wrong on some of that. When I first got dropped with him...let's just say my usual level of pissed off you've come accustomed to is mild in comparison. And a lot of that I took out on Dor, whether I meant to or not."

"I would have thought that you would have preferred to win the arguments," Mathias observed, taking another pull on his cigarette. "Never nice to be on the losing side, though me personally, I prefer to try and avoid arguments in the first place," he added. Often he could talk fast enough that they were out the other side before the argument had even started, or he sidestepped the matter completely. He had a variety of tactics, depending on who he was talking to, and they'd served him well over the eyars.

"I didn't say what I preferred, I'm saying looking back on it from a different place, I understand I shouldn't have." Caleb clarified. "Were you not listening to what I said? Or did you just miss the point?" he asked, though it was without rancor, it was an honest question. "I'm saying he and I fight, and he just...becomes this weak little girl, and you know, i really don't think that's best for him right now. I'm not saying I can't stand to be in the same room with him. That's not the case. I'm saying that I doubt my presence would be doing him any favors, especially if he's unstable right now. All I'd really be good for is probably knocking holes in his already shakey stability, and taking down anything in our way, which you don't actually need me for." he continued. "I know you, you could just dodge. Run, hide, find someplace else to be, and it would still have the same result, only with less corpses in the wake."

"You said that you were occasionally wrong - but that's retrospect. Nobody starts a fight at the time thinking they're in the wrong," Math pointed out. "But, okay, Dorian doesn't stand up for himself. So, be aware of that - and you have issues you feel the need to take out on Dor? Come to me. If things are bothering you about him, or you have some little comment you can't help making, or... anything you think really won't help. You come to me. It's not like I'm far away. You're my brother as well, Caleb and Dorian doesn't suddenly get precedence just because his issues have just become more immediate. And anyway, most of this - Dorian's just gonna have to learn to figure out himself. Nobody can hold his hand through this and honestly, I think learning to stand up for himself needs to be part of that. He's got to learn to deal. Especially if he's not going to go back to being a bookstore owner. He's going to need thicker skin."

"No, Dorian doesn't stand up for himself." Caleb said, thinking that was very well put. Much more diplomatic than Caleb had in his own head, but it was accurate. "Yes, he needs to learn to do that, among other things. But you're discounting something." he said. "You say that I'm your brother too, he doesn't get presedence, all that. Well, I have a say in that too. I'm putting presedence on him, from my point of view. Math, you're the oldest, but it's not exactly like you're our parents. ...and I can't even believe I'm saying that about a guy who's in his mid fucking twenties. Whatever, moving on. We should all watch out for each other, not..." he made a vague gesture towards Mathias. "Not you seeming to be putting yourself into a positition where you have to deal with everyone's issues. I don't think I can help here. I think I'd do more harm than good, and I don't think you should have to be go between, or buffer, or anything else. I think the best thing I can do is not be around to pick fights with him, or alternately, sit there in sullen silence the whole time when everyone knows I'm pissed and just not saying anything. That won't help either."

Mathias looked at him then and took his time as he finished his cigarette and rose once more to put it out. He took his time, he didn't rush and he returned to sit back down again. "You're discounting something as well," he said, when he finally spoke. "I know we talk about human rules and I know they don't always apply. But I'm applying this one - you're seventeen. You want to put that card out when you reach eighteen, fine. But not yet - you're not going off on your own, so you can stop that right now. It's not an option and we're not talking about it." Especially not since Mathias didn't trust how stable Caleb actually was. He'd seemed to be doing better recently, but yeah, Math didn't entirely trust that. He didn't make a big thing of it, but he was going to be keeping an eye on Caleb. Luckily, he hadn't had to make a big thing of it so far. "So, unless Dor decides to take off, we're all stuck with each other. Because I'm not going to be leaving either of you. And you're right - we should all be watching out for each other. And maybe you can find another way of dealing with issues that's not just arguing, or sitting there in sullen silence. Practice - I've seen you turn on the charm. You did it to that air hostess, and the nurses in the hospital. You've got more of it than you know. Practice - find ways of dealing with Dorian, if you have to. Figure out what works, what gets you where you want to be. Look on it as a project, if you have to. You think I don't get pissed at things? That I don't want to pick fights from time to time? Fuck that, course I do. But - you learn to deal with things and I know you've got it in you. I've seen it and something like that's not just limited to flirting with women, you've just got to work through it, think about what you're putting forward - manipulation of circumstances and conversations will often get you a hell of a lot further than fights ever will."

"I'd just be going back to Dor's and going back to school--" he started, though he could tell Math's tone and didn't figure he'd win that one. "And whatever, the charm thing, that's just...smiling at the right moment, or lying well. It's pushing someone's buttons at the right time, it's---" he broke off there and suddenly looked at Mathias for a long, long moment. There was a flicker of something akin to a vulnerable look for a second, then it was gone. "That's what you do, isn't it. With everyone. Including me." It wasn't really a question, and his voice went flat.

"I do what you need me to do," Mathias told him, not lying about the fact that he manipulated everyone around him. He didn't know how to be any other way. he'd tried to not be like that with Olivia and had ended up second guessing himself so much that he'd set everything to crash and burn and made himself miserable. And still he didn't know how much was him doing something simply because it wasn't 'him' and how much was him taking the supposed 'right path'. He wouldn't try that again, he was just who he was, take it or leave it. "I try and do what's best for you, take the approach I think will work best." People so often though that manipulation was a purely negative thing. But it wasn't, diplomacy was just another type of manipulation - reading people and taking the approach that would work best for them. The end there could be negative or positive, it was the result that was important in Math's view. "I've never lied to you, Caleb."

Caleb didn't say anything for a few long minutes. There was a lot running through his head, but he didn't say a word of it. That strong urge to bail was back, and strong. He continued to sit there, trying to ride that out though it didn't ebb at all. "What I need you to do." he said. "No, what you decided that was." he gave himself another minute. "You know the not having lied to me thing? Doesn't really help when I think that this entire time I've been thinking for some idiotic reason that I've been getting you, base line, and really all you've been doing is manipulating me the whole time. Doing whatever, to get whatever results you've decided that you want." He looked away and shook his head. "Even if your motivations were valid, Math? I'm your brother. I'm not your fucking puppet." And with that, he turned to walk out.

Math moved to stop him. "Fuck no - you don't get to walk out like that," he told his brother, putting a firm hand on his shoulder to stop him. "And you don't get to make assumptions like that about me. You have been getting me, baseline. This? Is who I am, Caleb. And no - you're not a fucking puppet. And I didn't have some kind of predetermined goal for you or any of that bullshit, so stop immediately jumping to the worst possible conclusions about everything for once in your life and just think for a minute. What would you prefer? A brother who can be there for you, who can talk through with you the things that you need to talk through and concentrate on trying to help you with the issues you have, maybe helping you out along the way? Or a brother who's only concerned with how what you're going through is impacting on his life? Who can't see past his own shit to give you time to deal with yours? And maybe some people see that as baseline. Maybe some people do it naturally. maybe I do - I don't know, I've been doing all of this for so fucking long most of it comes naturally anyway. And it's been so fucking long since I've actually been in a situation where I really give a damn about the people on the other side that I... Is there a difference if you're doing it to achieve some goal that you've set yourself or if you're doing it because you truly want to help the other person get to where they want to be? I don't know.

"I want you to be happy, Caleb. I want you to find whatever it is you want to be in life, to be okay with yourself and whatever other happy bullshit goes along with that. And it wouldn't help you any if I told you that at times, you make me so fucking frustrated. That the fact that you and I don't see the world the same way sometimes makes me want to scream. I understand now why it's like that, the differences we had growing up. But still, we're different people and sometimes it's hard for me that some things I can do as easily as I breathe, you can't really comprehend. But letting my frustrations, my annoyance with that get in the way, it wouldn't help you. And it wouldn't help me either - because it wouldn't change anything. It'd just mean that you'd get more annoyed, I'd get more annoyed, our relationship would steadily deteriorate and it'd be a complete fucking nightmare. So, I do what I have to to make sure that when you need me, I'm there and I'm there in a positive way."

Caleb stopped, and kept waiting for that flash of heat through his system as real rage kicked up, but it wasn't coming just then. Sure, right when he wanted it to be. "I get enough of the amazingly self fucking centered bullshit from Dorian. You described that pretty well, he do that to you too?" The question was rhetorical. "So no, I wouldn't prefer that, but that's also beside the point, isn't it? I'm not one of your fucking games. If all you ever see is just what fucking angle to play, then..." he shook his head. "And you know what, I can see it. I can understand how you just do it because that's what you do. It's all you ever do, that doesn't make it any better, when I'm one of the people you shouldn't have to play games with, and I sure as fuck don't want you to. And if that means you get frustrated and pissed at me I'd rather that. It's not like you've been one hundred percent successful in hiding it all the time, now is it? But no matter what, I'd rather that you were there, and actually you, not just whatever fucking mask you decide to show me." He stopped for a moment, then finished up. "We see the world differently, and there are always going to be things that I don't get about you and you don't get about me, and our world views aren't ever going to perfectly align. Yeah, it's frustrating sometimes, especially if that's directly contributing to issues, which makes it harder for you to help me, or me to help you--if you ever even listen to me, or own up to the fact that you ever have anything that isn't perfect about you--but that's just the way it is. And I'd still rather know it and accept it, and figure out another way around it than get the equivalent of a smile and fucking nod."

"Yeah, at times - don't think he notices he does it though," Mathias told him with a shrug, dropping his hand from his brother's shoulder since he didn't look like he was going to continue storming out. "He just has a talent for turning everything back round to him again." Which, coming from Mathias, was really saying something. "But, that's beside the point. I don't view you as one of my 'games' Caleb. I never have, but you can't ask me to not see all the angles. Like that's something I choose to do. It'd be like me asking you not to come up with the worst case scenario for every situation you come across. It's just what I do. It's who I am. And the fact that I'm not a hundred percent effective in hiding shit from you? That's because I'm not trying to play you. I am there, but if I was trying to be something I'm not - that'd be pretty fucking hypocritical, really, wouldn't it? All things considered."

"With me it's like...like he isn't even listening." Caleb said. "Like half the time he's spinning his mind on his own shit so much that he's just waiting for his turn to unload, and keep unloading, and he never bothers to pick up on the fact that I've got shit of my own too. ...fuck he did it to me when I was in the hospital for fucks sake." he said, leaning back against the wall. He stared at the floor for a few long moments, trying to process everything, and figure out how he felt about it. "...yeah, but even if you were being hypocritical, you'd do it, for the right result." he said finally, though it was more of an observation than an accusation. It was said with a sigh, as he was recognizing a few things. Like he could see what his brother was saying, even if he didn't like it. "I just don't like the idea of being played. I'm sure you can understand that. I've got enough damage in my head as it is, I don't want to be wondering if what you say to me is the truth, or if you're just trying to spin things in a certain light because that's the way you want me to see something." he explained.

"I can't do it, bro," Mathias told him. "I don't know how to. I tried, with Olivia. I tried not doing all the things I do. You know - you've seen me with women," he chuckled, shaking his head. "But, I didn't want to do that to her - I cared what she thought, felt, all of it. So I actively tried not doing the things I normally do. And I fucked it up every step of the way. I just don't know how to act when I'm not being me. And with you - and Dorian - I'm just feeling my way. I'm just trying to be there. And relating when I can - I've seen things and I've fucked up and I know how you guys both see me. You see my life as perfect, right? Like I'm a golden boy who's had it easy. So, maybe if you guys see that I've fucked up, that I've had the same issues... That's all I've been spinning with you, Caleb. And that's because sometimes I think you do need to see - because you see yourself in this totally negative light. And I don't. I think you're better than that and I'm gonna stick to that view. And I don't see anything wrong with that."

"Olivia was a fucking psycho head case that I'd really rather not be in any kind of same sentence with." Caleb said. "That woman fucked with your head a ton, so sorry, but I think that that try? Was wasted on someone who wasn't worth it. Try it on someone else. Or don't, give up, whatever, it's your life, but I'm serious, that girl was fucked, and you shouldn't have things pinned on her when she was just messing you around." Yes, Caleb still held a strong opinion on that, it was clear in his tone. "Frankly, yeah, I do need to see that. Because you spend all of your energy presenting the image that everything is perfect, and I think you forget that sometimes. Though--" he paused, then looked up to catch his brother's eye again. "Look, do you even realize how you put things sometimes? Earlier, when you were talking about being frustrated with me and how some shit I don't get, and all that--you said that sometimes it's hard for you because things you do as easily as breathing I can't understand." he said. "Which puts you directly back on the pedestal." Again, it wasn't in an accusational tone, he was just pointing it out and trying to shed a different light on it than what Math might have considered previously. "And anyways, with this last turn of conversation, I'm not--I told you how I feel about it, because I wanted you to know what that seems like to me. I didn't ask you not to do it. I didn't demand you change. I said I don't like the idea of being played. I don't. That's not changing either."

"Olivia - looking back on it, I think what Olivia wanted was me. Like the me I present to the world - the guy who'd appear and sweep her off her feet, overcoming all obstacles and all her willpower and all the rest of the romantic bullshit. I think she wanted to be played. I just wanted... I don't know. I don't know what I wanted. But I didn't get it, obviously," he added, rather more quietly, before he took a breath and headed for his cigarettes, lighting up before he spoke again, normally this time. "What I said about you not doing things I can do easily. That works both ways, you know. It's not about being on pedestals, it's about us having different talents. And it's about me being fourteen years older than you and having had that much time to refine what I can do. Of course I'm going to be better at some shit than you are - I just have to remember that. I forget, sometimes. Nasty habit of believing that everyone's like me," he shrugged. Mathias just had unshakeable belief in other people.

"The woman went on and on and on about how wonderful her new goddamn boytoy was, then damn near tried to talk you into just taking her there in a car." Caleb said flatly. "Manipulative. Whore. I don't care how you slice it, what she wanted, she fucked with your head. And anyways, even if what you say is right--which it isn't, but even so--that still doesn't excuse her behavior. It still means you picked the wrong girl to try and be straight with. She wasn't worth it." He crossed his arms and still looked lingeringly pissy over that, because he was overprotective on that score. "And you're kind of missing my point. It wasn't what you said, it was how you said it. Ignore the meaning of what you said entirely, it was just the light you put it in, that default kick to putting yourself in that 'perfect' position." he explained. And he gave Math a Look, too. "And right there." he said, making a vague gesture. "You believe everyone's like you, just that good, or whatever. It's that same thing over and over. ..you know how you said you don't think Dor notices when he's being a selfish prick?" he said. "I don't think you notice when you're playing the 'I'm perfect' card all the damn time."

"That's not me playing the 'I'm perfect' card - you're reading in, Caleb," Mathias countered. "I think you're too sure that I'm coming from a default 'I'm perfect' position that you see that even when I don't mean it like that. 'Like me' in that they can do what I can do, sure, but that doesn't mean I'm perfect. In what way does that make me sound like I'm saying I'm perfect?" he asked, purposefully avoiding having to say anything else about Olivia.

"And I think you don't have any idea how you come across." Caleb countered, though calmly. "Maybe that's not how you see it, or how you mean it, but that's how it comes across. You don't always get to dictate how people react to you or take things, you know. And your entire persona you present to the world is one of confidence and 'I'm better than the other guy'. And I think it's like you said. You don't know how to shut that off, especially since I figure you also mostly think that's all true because most of the time it is." he said. "You said you've had fourteen more years to refine what you do. Refining is getting things down to an art. Or, for lack of a different word, perfection. Even if we take that word out, my basic point is you always put things into whatever you're saying that sells you as the high point, and automatically downplays whoever else." he finished. "I think you just do it, and don't know what it means to everyone else when you do. The flipside of it, because you're never on that flipside."

"I'm good at what I do," Mathias allowed. "But that doesn't mean I'm perfect. Everyone has things they're good at, doesn't make them perfect either. But, if I always sell my high points, you do the exact opposite - you live on that flipside, you automatically take everything and view it so it downplays you. It's not even just in what you say - it's in what other people say as well. If there's a way that you can view it that makes you look inferior? You'll take it that way - even if that's not how it was meant. It means that sometimes talking to you, it's impossible. You leave people feeling like they just can't win. And please, don't come back and say that it's just me - that it's just because I'm 'used to winning' or something like that. Don't flip it back on me. I see what you're saying about me, that doesn't take away from the validity of any observations I may have of you."

"No, but you don't seem to be able to not flip it back on me." Caleb observed. "You've given the slightest bit of cursory acknowledgment to maybe possibly seeing my point, but you're still saying it's all me, and you tried to say that it was all me in the first place. And, I might add, something negative about me. I didn't even put that in there, but you are. And anyways--this entire point? Had nothing to do with me, but you're focusing it on me. My point was that--here, I'll reword. Yes, I look at things in a negative light. True. The way you put shit doesn't help that. That was my point. Your default is to point out your own achievements in comparison to other people's shortcomings. If you really want to turn this all into 'Caleb, you really just view everything negatively', well, that's just one more thing to pile on, isn't it?" He shrugged. "What you take away from that is up to you, but don't say I didn't try to communicate how how you put shit makes me feel."

This was one of those moments where Mathias didn't think he could win. It was frustrating as hell. "So, you think I'm putting you down and selling myself up because I'm arguing that I'm not as good as you seem to think I am? That I'm saying that my achievements, skills, whatever the fuck, aren't as good as you seem to think? I'm not even - yes, I'm self-confident, but what I can do? Isn't all that great. Have you actually sat down and looked at what I can do? Really - I'm faster than people. Other than that, there is nothing much to me but talk." He took a breath and slowly exhaled. "But - I'll try to watch it."

Caleb drew in a deep breath and let it out slowly, shaking his head. "No, I'm saying that's what it comes off as. Not that you're doing it on purpose, or anything of the sort. But that's how it comes off. Now who's reading in?" he asked. "And when have you said that? That you're not as good, besides maybe in passing in this conversation? Talking to you today seems like you expect me to have a lot more of a perfect idea of everything that goes on in your head, when we've already been talking today about the fact that you're naturally manipulative, and you show me what you think I need to see. So...that's really really not going to work." he said. "And that's more or less all I wanted. Just that. That last bit there. Try to watch it. I'd appreciate. End of story." he said. Well, at least he hadn't gotten pissed again. A little frustrated, but not pissed. "Still doesn't answer what the hell to do with Dor." he continued, hopping subjects. "And I still think I'm probably really not good at all for him right now, in purely psychological ways."

End of story, and Math dropped it. There was no point going round in circles. "None of us knows what to do about Dor - not even Dor," Mathias pointed out. "What bugs you the most? Maybe I can help you figure out a way of dealing with the issues - not saying I can, but I'm willing to talk it though, see if we can figure out something together," he added, really concentrating on the way he was putting things.

Caleb thought about that for a few long minutes, trying to come up with the most concise way of saying it. "...is there a cure for him behaving like someone probably a little younger than me with massive self worth issues?" he asked, smirking ever so faintly. "And a girl, while we're at it?" He paused. "I figure we can tackle the 'by the way other people in the world exist beyond you' issue later. That one is going to be rough."

Mathias laughed at that. "There probably is - but I skipped the psyc degree," he joked. "The self-worth issues - how do you make someone feel better about themselves?" he asked, actually wondering about that. He knew things that he'd try, but it wasn't like he'd ever been in a situation where he needed someone to do that to him. He'd dealt with his problems on his own, every time. At most, he'd called their mother - she'd always made him feel better about himself. But at the end of the day, she was a demon. And as much as Mathias had loved his mother, he'd always been aware that her viewpoint was a little skewed and now, he'd revised that to something rather more condemning.

"I have no idea." Caleb said. "Still working on my own issues on that score. What I don't get is why he's even got them to begin with." he admitted. He moved to drop down into one of the shitty motel chairs, looking thoughtful. "I mean, what does he want?" he asked. "Okay he didn't have the same parenting you did, but he still had better parenting than I did. He got college handed to him. Fuck, Math, in the genetic freebies department, he's got us both trumped. So...seriously, what's the damage and where the fuck is it even coming from?"

Mathias took a seat back on the end of the bed. "I have no idea," he admitted. "I always saw Dorian as the stable one, y'know? No offence, bro, but - yeah. I was always impressed by Dorian, y'know? Me - I'm kind of a flake, if I'm being brutally honest. Hell, my life suits me and I could never have done what Dorian did, but the fact he could do it? Well, it doesn't really matter what I thought now, does it? Since he obviously couldn't." He got up and retrieved his cigarettes - the pack nearly empty by now. He'd have to go out for more later - he thought he'd seen a machine down the hall. Lighting up, he thought for a few minutes. "Sometimes, I wonder if what he wants is to be me," he said, in the end, in a slightly puzzled manner.

"None taken, I did just get out of the psych ward a few weeks ago." Caleb said, blowing that off. He wasn't going to claim to be the even one. He pondered over the last thing Math said for a while before he said anything, giving it careful thought. "Okay, if that's the case, what is it about you that he wants to be striving for? Or what's he percieving, that he wants? Maybe if we can just...I don't know. Figure out what it is he's under the impression he's missing, that will knock him off of this fucking pathetic stride. Because that's what it is. He's got better shit than probably either of us, still has the good background--I don't see the downsides. Definitely not nearly enough for his current attitude to be explained." Then he paused. "Unless he's possessed by a fourteen year old girl with PMS."

Mathias took a long draw on his cigarette and thought about this, taking his time over the exhale. "Okay - let's put aside the fact that Dorian had a better life growing up than you did for a minute, okay? I don't dispute it for a moment, but... Let's just take you out of the equation. Put yourself in Dorian's shoes - how do you see me?" he asked, thinking of what Dorian had gone and done, what he knew of his brother from past experiences, trying to make things make sense.

"Okay." Caleb said, drawing in a deep breath, and letting it out slowly. He thought about it. "Alright, you're the favored older brother, because even if Dor didn't get quite my deal--you are and always will be the parent's favorite." he observed. "Youuuu...have an easy life, nothing gets to you...you do whatever you want whenever you want to and don't apologize to anyone for it..." he rattled off. "No ties, you come and go as you please..." he tacked on there. "And that's about as far as I can go there. I miss anything obvious?"

"I don't know, that's why I asked. You've just been telling me I have no idea how I come across, remember?" he half-joked. "I come across as perfect, apparently. if Dorian had a good life, then I had a great life? An easy life? A life anyone would want?" he asked, his tone obviously pointing towards wanting Caleb's opinion on those questions.

"Maybe he just thinks whatever it is that you have is better." Caleb said. "Not at all stopping to think that maybe what's best for you isn't what's best for him. Maybe he doesn't consider it at all. Maybe he just wants what he can't have. Only....in some really, really extreme, entirely stupid way." Caleb continued. "Like...I dunno. Think if we pointed out all the shit he has over one or both of us, he'd have noted it already, or do you think it would come as a surprise? And if it did, would he even keep it in mind? I mean he's been gone for weeks, and he seems like he's just not made any progress at all. Going out to find himself or whatever the fuck it was he was doing, he obviously hasn't figured his shit out."

"I wonder if he thought that whatever I had was better, but then he faced the reality and it got him here. So, he had his sights on leading my life, since it works for me - and the fact it suddenly didn't work for him has him flailing and right back where he started," Mathias mused, taking another draw. "I don't know - it just seems that Dorian's living other people's lives. He tried the whole bookstore thing, because he thought that's what other people thought he should be doing. He tries my life and - yeah, I know, I introduced him to contacts and helped him with that, but that's what he seemed to want to go and do... I think he wants to be perfectly happy - but, it doesn't work like that. You can't have it all," Math said, shaking his head.

"Well, first of all, if he wants to be happy at all, he needs to have a better idea of who to listen to." Caleb said. "Other than some weird idea of 'people' and what they want, like society took a poll and told him to go do whatever. Or even either one of us." He slouched down in his chair, trying to think of ways Dorian's head might even be working. "Okay this is a stab in the dark here, but it seems to me that Dorian's version of the world, and the one the rest of us live in aren't necessarily the same place." he said slowly. "Like, his perceptions are just...off. Fucked, in some fundamental manner, and he doesn't see it. And what he does see, he only sees pieces of. Like, let's take your life. No matter how much you love it and all that shit. there's a reason you move around a lot. It's because you piss off a lot of people, and you have bolting plans because you're used to having to bolt. If Dorian is all about pleasing people--whoever the hell those people are--then your lifestyle? Is fucked. Not to mention, I don't think he would even consider that downside, or whatever. Like he's got a picture of the whole, but he's only looking at the shiny bits that stand out." He quirked a little half smirk. "And that's my psychobabble bullshit for the evening."

"Right, I mean - the attraction of my life? No responsibilities, major world travel, intrigue, excitement, all that bullshit. And you know I don't talk about the rest. The running, the being shot at, the 'lots of people want to kill me', the always being on my own, always being ready to run - I could go on, but I won't. It's like - before he left, we were talking about Nevermore, about Marquette. And he hadn't thoguht about the drawbacks there before he set up. About the mortgage, about having to find time to clean the house and keep the garden tidy. About having to go into work day after day and be nice to people and get them to buy things. I don't think Dorian sees the downside, then when he's faced with them, instead of just learning to live with them, he wants to ditch the whole project as not going to work for him. Except, in this last case, what seems to be freaking him out is that he did enjoy it - he just didn't like who he was when he was enjoying it. Which... could be another thing altogether," Math mused, taking another pull on his cigarette, reflectively.

"What do you mean?" Caleb asked, since he wasn't privy to this part of things. "What doesn't he like with what?"

"It goes back to the society thing," Mathias told him. "At least, I think it did. Dorian seemed to - go on some vigilante justice trip or something. That's what got us all here, since it went kinda wrong. And anyway, he said it felt right, but that he wasn't entirely comfortable with the fact it felt right, because he knew it was wrong - because we were raised as humans and that got into his system, I guess." Mathias could only guess at that, because it hadn't gotten into his system - but then again, he'd had the attention from their mother who'd reminded him every day of his life, with great glee and gusto that he wasn't human. He'd never been allowed to forget that.

Caleb blinked at his brother, and opened his mouth, shut it, then tried again. "...we were raised as humans? Really?" he asked. "I must have missed that part. What with mom being a sadistic bitch and everything. And never once going out of her way to even try to hide the fact that she was pretty goddamn evil, or ever try and protect us from what she had done in the past or anything. I mean, I found mom's 'memories' photo album once, and only looked at the first page before I decided I didn't want to know. But okay even discounting that--we're not human. I mean I feel the seperation, I really do, I even twitch over it sometimes, but I don't--I'm sure as hell not human. Shit that would get people put away forever is normal to me. I would imagine it's the same for you two as well. So where the hell did he even get that idea? What like he's got to play pretend or something? And what for? I mean...I've probably killed more shit since moving to Marquette than I ever did in New Orleans. I don't feel bad about that. Or the fact that I love a good fight. I---am really really confused here."

"I don't get it either. But I figured that maybe that was just me. Obviously not," Mathias said, easily. "I mean, sure, we went to school and all, but yeah - not human. You know, he was talking about god? Like he thought there should be one, and a devil, or something? Where he got that one from, I have no idea - it's not like we ever went near a church as kids."

Caleb now was giving his brother 'you've got to be fucking kidding me' look. "God?!" he blurted. "God. As in made the fuck up magical deity in the sky?" He stopped. "...this isn't going to be a popular opinion here but are we sure he hasn't just...y'know, completely lost his shit?" he asked seriously. "Are there even places to bring people like us to get professional help?"

"I don't think he believes,more like... He's disappointed there's not one, or something? Like it would give some kind of weird purpose to life honestly Caleb i didn't get it. At all. But - I don't know. Yeah. God came up," Mathias said, looking a little lost.

"....what. The. Fuck." Caleb said slowly. "No, seriously, what the fuck. He's that far gone that he's whining that there's not some mystical figurehead pulling strings? Or two, if we want to throw the other end in there? He wants purpose to life? No one has that. No one gets that shit handed to them unless they're easily lead motherfuckers who'll drink the goddamn koolaid. If he really wants a god, why not..." he made a vague gesture. "Chick. Whoever the fuck ascended mom." He didn't know the full story there, just vague references.

"The Mourning Star," Mathias provided for him. Mom had told him that story, though only the once in any detail. For all she liked to talk about her glory years, her actual ascension wasn't something she aired in public very often. Math knew she was still bitter over that on some levels. He sometimes wondered if she would take it back, if she could. if dad and they had been worth it.

"Her, then." Caleb said. "Because that's the only even hearsay evidence I've ever heard of of some higher power." he said. "Maybe Dor can follow that if he needs something to follow, if he can't find his own way or make his own decisions." He sighed. "What the hell are we even going to do with him?" he asked, even if the question was something of a rhetorical one.

"I was going to go with giving him time and patience and hoping he sorts his shit out." Which was largely the same tack he'd been taking with Caleb, actually.

"You actually see that happening, with as many issues as there seem to be?" Caleb asked seriously. "Without...I have no idea what, even." Help, he supposed. But then they were back to the fact that there weren't exactly supernatural shrinks, now were there.

"You have a better plan?" Mathis asked, raising an eyebrow. "Cos I sure as hell don't."

"No. I just wish there was something of a game plan." Caleb admitted. "Because we both know patience is a virtue I don't actually have." It was a flaw. A pretty glaring one.

"Well, think on it and if you come up with anything..." Mathias allowed. "In the meantime, I'm just going to be playing it by ear. See what comes up." It was the closest he got to a lack of manipulation.

"I will. Not that I plan to. This really isn't my area." Caleb admitted. "I'll think on it though. Til then...can we head home and hit up Ohio?" he asked.

"Already said yes to that, didn't I? But yes - we can go via Ohio. Meet your girlfriend, it'll be great," he teased.

Caleb groaned. "Fuck, don't. She's not my girlfriend. She's just....really vulnerable and I happened to come by at the right time." he said. "Plus, I can't convince Dean to take her."

"Take her?" Mathias laughed. "What, you palming the poor girl off already? When you're her white knight, obviously..."

There was only one response to that and that was to send the pencil and notepad that bore the name of the motel at his brother. "Fuck off, I don't do very well with vulnerable girls! What with the fact that the last two I even remotely got involved with went insane on me! But he's one for one, a much nicer guy, doesn't happen to be a half demon and probably needs to get laid more than the three of us put together...."

"Hey - you're a nice guy!" Mathias teased, easily dodging the pencil and paper as they went flying past. "Just look at the evidence - not only are you going well out of your way for the girl, you're then thinking of you friend first and being all charitable in giving her up for his good. You're just a little saint underneath it all..."

"That's it I'm out of here." Caleb said, though there was humor clearly in his tone and smirk as he pushed himself to his feet. "I'm going to go pack the rest of my saintly shit and I'll be waiting down at the non-saintly car." He opened the door. "Maybe I'll bless it for you while I wait."

Mathias didn't make any moves to stop him this time. "Just - make sure she knows her fate up front," he laughed. "If you're really gonna try tagging her for your friend." He let the joke go then though, since that was all it was - it was just nice after the argument of earlier, to be able to wind his brother up in a more humorous way.

"Yeah, yeah, yeah. keep it up and you're not getting to meet her!" Caleb said before he shut the door, to head and do exactly what he said he was going to. Though now he had Rose on the brain again. That was just fucking perfect.